2. Also, the classes offered have little to no effect on my recommendations simply because so many students find that once in law school their interests turn out to be far different than what they expected (and because most law school courses are basically the same in the first year plus, meaning a high percentage of your legal education is the same at each school). 2) If I attend Fordham at sticker price, I am sure I will have more connections and job advantages coming out, but the question is whether I want to work in Big Law or not. That is what you will pay for the benefit of the higher employment chances at WashU, should you choose to go there. They excelled in college, on their applications, and perhaps most importantlyon their LSAT scores. An emerging scandal involving accusations that many of the nation's elite universities conspired to keep financial aid packages artificially low seems like a steel door slamming in the face of middle America.. Knowing thats your preferred path gives that some weight, but at least to me I dont see their numbers as being so much better that you should go broke for it. First, just for anyone reading, heres the LST comparison:https://www.lstreports.com/compare/emory/tennessee/. Podcast Episode 137: August 2023 LSAT Recap Part 1, The Problems, Podcast Episode 136: Applying to Law School as a Nontraditional Student. University of Maryland, Carey (sticker). However, Hofstra offered me a full ride and I was wondering if the full ride would be worth it from a much lesser ranked school? Does Penn State pull well and does the name recognition of Penn State help?! Print it out, find some privacy, and then take the full test start to finish as four back-to-back sections of 35 minutes each. Allow me to add that I am very fortunate in that costs are not an issue. If hes dead set on it, then Harvard and Yale probably do win, with or without money at other top-10 law schools. Second Id look at the monthly payment on those debt numbers and consider what income is needed to cover those. Pending waitlist movement (4 t14 waitlists, and still pending at NYU) I have narrowed my choices down to 3 schools and calculated the debt I would leave each school with: Virginia (250k), WashU (90k), Wisconsin (30k, in-state & alma mater). First, do your research on job outcomes and locations! Hi Dave, Ive got an NC question on which Im hoping you might be able to provide some guidance. Their national titles match that of Kansas, and their accomplishments eclipse all of Indianas except for total national titles. Does Penn State pull well in general? Thanks for the question. Thanks for your advice. I am not your regular applicant: I am a 34 year old lawyer from Argentina, where I currently live. By the way, even the transfer numbers support this stay at home theory: only 4 transferred out of MN; Emory, by comparison saw 15 transfer out, presumptively towards what they saw as greener pastures. I just found this blog and find myself in a situation where I am debating between some schools and could use some advice! Any other comments on that? . Additionally, UChicago offers a generous summer funding program for public interest positions and a great LRAP. Rankings too, show that same positions: WashU is #18 and SLU is #88, and a comparison of the LSAT/GPA numbers shows a significant difference. Second, I love LA and lived there for years, but its not for everyone Westwood is charming and the surrounding areas are certainly nice, but its not going to be the city experience youve had in Philadelphia. Do these discrepancies concern you? To be competitive for the same job coming out of Cornell, our hypothetical 1L should ideally have above-median grades. the Duke rejection more or less sums up where she stands right now: shes set with OSU (great school, btw) but her numbers arent good enough for the T14. Im also interested in cultural heritage/art restitution (very specific, I know). 1 among public universities and is tied for 19th among all national universities in the USN&WR Best Colleges rankings. If you think the personal touch they showed was a game changer, then by all means keep them in. I ask because I did my own calculations using the estimate cost from both schools and here is what I got: GW: School est. I am a Texas resident and want to practice patent law in Houston. I am also from Minnesota. Im currently trying to decide between UT Austin and Georgetown. My thought is that if I wait and reapply more law schools will be accepting the GRE which will help my numbers, but also presumably means there will be many more applicants who also have great GRE scores and passable LSAT scores. Hey Corey, thanks for the reply! Do scholarship negotiations usually work from your experience? Even if the full ride was at a top 50 school such as Florida State law or UF law? I know Madison is a great town, but the law school doesnt compare to either of the others, and with WashU being free, its hard to say no. I do like the location of GMU and the fact that its a smaller school. Or free ride with $90k debt (COL only) at Cardozo and hustle for a job with a (very) likely lower salary? Its an up and coming school that has been rising recently and working hard at it. Thanks, its no problem! Anything else useful that you could add to my considerations here? Im really struggling with my decision as I get down to the deadline wire, and would love your advice on this. COA= $85,900/yr My est. My long term goal however is to move to the US and practice there. Second, if you apply those in this case (and I hope you do), look closely at job outcomes, because the bottom line tuition cost on these two schools is pretty similar (maybe ~$1000 a year difference after your scholarships are taken into account). Congrats on the acceptance, and go have a great time! But still that is quite excellent. When we start talking about schools, its easy for the money to get abstracted. About 1.3% of students at Villanova came from a poor family but became a rich adult. I attended UW for undergrad, Wisconsin is my home state, and I think I want to practice in Milwaukee. Are you saying youd make an offer to the school that if they let you in, youd for sure attend? Thanks for the message and sorry for the delayed replyI missed this somehow! The second placement state is Wisconsin, which means 2/3 of all MN grads stick in the MN-WI area. I guess the interesting thing in my situation is that I have no other debt from undergrad or my Masters (I attended on full rides) and I would be living in Manhattan, at home, with no rent payment. How accurate are the cost from the lstreports site? They also have a huge national reach. However, its difficult for me since I have limited experience with that sector; for you, theres an avenue that can help make this decision much easier. First, lets return to that 2018 post and update my reply there. However, I was also given full scholarships at St.Johns and Brooklyn Law, in addition to approximately a third of tuition at Cardozo (3 year total of 115k). Villanova University - Profile, Rankings and Data | US News Best Colleges As far as intentional placement, I cant speak to that as much since Asian markets are quite varied and Im not a specialist on placements in the various cities, and also because you are talking about that in several years time, not now. We can see how they stack up against each other here:https://www.lstreports.com/compare/bu/northeastern/. In the spring of 1967, John Echohawk a 1963 Farmington High School graduate who had just earned his bachelor's degree from the University of New Mexico paid a visit to the UNM School to Law to make sure his application for admittance had been received and to check on scholarship . As in, very suspicious. If we break down the numbers (excluding cost of living for now), then what you have told me so far reduces to the following: Vanderbilt: $54K a year $27K scholarship = $27K/year = $81K over three years, Michigan: $58K a year $20K scholarship = $38K/year = $114K over three years. Villanova School of Business Maintains Prestigious Accreditation It depends on a lot of different factors, including your numbers and how their own applicant pool is shaping up. Thank you so much again in advance if you are able to take a look at my analysis so far! And, obtaining that 1L Summer job is for most people, fraught with tension. And its more expensive for a lower ranking and lower job stats. The HYS schools are like the superpowers of the law school universe, and offer a name that opens doors no matter where you go. Now, lets say you go out and do quite well, and your class rank is high. I want you (and me) to be able to quantify *exactly* what it costs to attend Northeastern vs Quinnipiac. Please let me know what you think, and good luck! Thanks for the response. Early Action and Early Decision vs. Regular Decision Admission Rates I do not have any connections with anyone who actually is in the international legal sector, or who has even worked in business abroad. NYC wasnt my cup of tea, and I found Ann Arbor more liveable. I am going to USC and it is my freshman year. they cant decide for you, but maybe theyll help you best understand your personal values and how those relate to the costs involved here. Tell them that you prefer Fordham (assuming thats the case), and ask not only for them to increase their offer but name a figure if you can. Naturally, I have my sights set on BigLaw, but Im aware of the low probability of that occurring. Can you clarify for me your total cost of attendance (COA) at each school over the three years? Im coming up on deposit deadlines and am having a tough time making a decision between Loyola Chicago, Boston College, and University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. Honestly, finance isnt a problem even though I may feel the psychological burden that Im investing so much into a three-year education.Im putting employment post-grad as my priority. The other school of thought says that nothing is guaranteed, but that debt is real and non-dischargeable, and thus to be avoided at all costs. Jakeel Registe is a 6-5, 190 pound, three-star small forward who plays for Episcopal high school in Bellaire, Texas. Its extremely difficult to choose any school without having a lot of info upfront about the student Your daughter certainly has some interesting choices, and the first step you should take is to determine the specifics of each school situation. But, Alabama seems to do just fine over in Texas, which is an offset. Currently leaning towards Georgetown, but definitely looking for someone to sanity check this call. While I wouldnt need to take out an exorbitant amount of debt (compared to many other law students), it would take out a lot of savings. Im not sure if there is any way of getting around that to negotiate a higher offer, but Im working with the assumption that that will be my final offer. The starting place for an analysis isnt just the scholarships and total debt, its also all the other factors Ive talked about variously above (such as rankings, job placement in the job type you want, exact cost of debt per month when full COA is considered, etc). Scholarship offers: UVA 120,000, Michigan 135,000, UT 24,000 COA: Mich 105k UVA 125k UT 145k, For working in Texas, is UT really that much better than other T10s? In that process Ill use rankings from US News and Above the Law, and as much as I think rankings systems have natural flaws, they are useful because they reflect how other people perceive the schools. So, for me, I think you are sane and thinking in a level way . The median family income of a student from Villanova is $195,800, and 75% come from the top 20 percent. The ABA has been cracking down recently, and some schools have closed entirely, leaving many students high and dry. Its weird timing, as classes start next week at both schools, but the circumstances are kind of unique. Next, lets look at the job outcomes at both schools to see if the extra $15.3K might be justifiable: *Vanderbilt* US News Ranking: 17 ATL Ranking: 14, Employment Score: 78.9% Under-employment Score: 13.5%, Large Firm: 37.3% Small Firm: 4.3% Federal Clerkship: 9.7% Public Service: 11.9%, *Michigan* US News Ranking: 8 ATL Ranking: 13, Employment Score: 85.0% Under-employment Score: 10.5%, Large Firm: 50.8% Small Firm: 1.4% Federal Clerkship: 10.2% Public Service: 12.7%. Hi its Nikki. 519-4500 Contact Us. My lean here would be UCI since youll have greater portability in coming years adn better options out of the gate, but Im cognizant that $78K is a significant additional debt sum. Paul is passionate about helping students learn and grow, and he has written extensively on the topic of education. Job outcomes here are obviously critical, and you should carefully peruse the LST Reports: Seehttps://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/jobsandhttps://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/jobs. 84% employment, 30% with clerkship or biglaw. I saw in an earlier comment that you recommend reposting in case you miss one! I think the writing is on the wall unless you absolutely would be miserable at Illinois. It is a highly respected school in the region, and if I graduate here I wouldnt need to take the BAR to practice in Wisconsin if that is what I want to do. One last question I just have, when talking about specific employment goals and future plans. Unfortunately, Villanova and UNC are not exactly in the same tier, which would make it difficult to leverage your aid at Villanova. Ive looked at all the employment stats and am still having trouble knowing how significant the difference is. Good luck!! I graduated from a CUNY with a 3.98 gpa and a dual major. This relates to an interesting fact about life in the upper midwest: people tend to stay there. Schools are ranked according to their performance across a set of widely accepted indicators of excellence. Lets say she could raise her score into the upper 160s. Im not following your financial breakdown here because I need your personal total cost of attendance (COA). I definitely want to live and practice in New York City at least for a few years after graduating before I move elsewhere. Thank you so much for taking the time to provide such a detailed response to my question! So, whatever decision you make here is going to have to result in it being worth the monthly payment of the first number. Notre Dame has offered $40,000 a year scholarship and WashU has offered $38,000 a year scholarship. Considering OCI is only 11-12 months away, I should be okay if I go to BC and keep in contact right? Tier 3 are major public research universities, among them most of the University of California system. Thanks for the message, and sorry for the delay in replying! Im in the luckiest position I can imagine and have gotten in to a lot of great schools. In the mean time he is deliberating between Harvard Law and NYU with a full tuition scholarship coupled with direct mentoring from a NYU law professor (the Vanderbilt scholarship). Please let us know what you decide! Youve said its a concern, and I think you are quite right to be worried about it. Hey, Im listening to your podcast right now and Im in this situation too. I hope to hit at least 20 average before the test date. But, everyone makes their own choices, and what I say may not apply to you. Let me know if you have any other question. I will say that Biglaw isnt my be all end all as a career, but it is definitely a part of my plan, because I hope to be well-positioned for a senior role in public service/government/(more specifically) climate policy one day. If you can handle the winters in Ithaca, and generally like the campus and school environment, then there arent too many other factors that would be relevant enough to dissuade you from attending Cornell. I am in a little bit of a predicament and could use some guidance. After speaking with some of the lawyers at the firm I work with, I think I have further narrowed it down to BU and ASU, provided I am not offered acceptance to Duke. The full COA differential is about $25K over three years, in favor of USC. Santa Clara University (full-tuition) & 2. So, when you talk about transferring up, we have to consider not just grades but that starting school as well (that said, Case would allow you to transfer into the T14, maybe even higher if you absolutely killed it on the grades). This is after negotiating with schools so these are final offers. But Im just wondering if all this talk of rankings, prestige and connections matter most for BIGLAW. So again I dont see it being worth the money. Im also concerned that WashU has less of a national reputation than Notre Dame and am worried that it will be difficult finding a job. Thank you for looking it over, I truly do appreciate it! Can you get into Villanova with a 1300 SAT? However, they would only be able to tell me if they are able to increase my scholarship offer after the deadline to reserve my seat. FAST FACTS. Longterm I would prefer a mid-sized or international city to live in. Villanova University School of Business - Poets&Quants for Undergrads Can you post that herethats always my starting point . A few thoughts here: Given your description of law interest and desired city size, Im not sure you need to worry about biglaw so much. I am currently debating between attending 3 schools right now: Pitt, Drexel, and Duquesne. The following sets forth additional information: Money/debt is an important factor. As a Duke grad myself, I typically have strong feelings about schools in the region However, somewhat surprisingly perhaps, I tend to be a fan of UNC (I spent a fair bit of time in Chapel Hill as an undergrad and liked the students and campus quite a bit). A school like GW knows how important the rankings are, and it wont be lost on them that they need to get back up there, and theyll put in the resources to make that happen. In 2017, there were 61 grads, and 33 practiced in Pennsylvania, and 4 in NY. I have been accepted with a scholarship to both Minnesota Law and Emory. Background on me: Im drawn towards public interest/govt. Id love to attend Michigan, but Im a bit hesitant to take the debt onI cant quite figure out if the extra debt is worth it when the scholarship difference is $7k/year ($21k total) with Michigan tuition costing $4k more than Vanderbilt per year ($12k total). I would greatly appreciate your insight on my top choices. The U tends to have the power to place grads a bit further afield (the #23 ranking helps there), so you see a lower placement rate into Minnesota and greater placement in larger legal markets like NY, IL, and CA. Let me try to take them one at a time . Florida Agricultural And Mechanical University, Indiana University Purdue University Indianapolis, Massachusetts Institute Of Technology (Mit), Missouri University Of Science And Technology, State University Of New York Health Science Center At Brooklyn, Suny College Of Environmental Science And Forestry, The University Of North Carolina At Charlotte, The University Of Texas Health Science Center At Houston, The University Of Texas Health Science Center At San Antonio, The University Of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, The University Of Texas Medical Branch At Galveston, The University Of Texas Rio Grande Valley, Uniformed Services University Of The Health Sciences, University At Buffalo Suny School Of Engineering And Applied Sciences, University Of California, Los Angeles (Ucla), University Of Illinois At Urbana Champaign, University Of Maryland Baltimore County (Umbc), University Of Massachusetts Medical School Worcester, University Of Tennessee Health Science Center, University Of Texas Southwestern Medical Center. In general, the rule is that the better the school, the more room you have with your grades. I havent done an LRAP analysis of UVA any time recently, so I dont feel comfortable making anything other than general comments here at the moment. Put together a spreadsheet for each school and fill in every possible item. Thanks for the feedback. In this case you have a Top 25 law school in Minnesota that looks to be near free for you vs a Top 5 law school in Chicago, which has national and international recognition. In other words, the school will play well in Texas, and you shouldnt have any problems having a degree from there when seeking employment in TX. Thanks for the question! Thanks for your time and help! Both schools are regional, so you need to be comfortable with the idea of working in the Philly area if you go to Villanova. So the balance becomes an extra year (and I dont take that lightly) vs where she wants to go and what kind of school she needs for that. Just reminding you about my post above. Villanova Prep is located in the Roman Catholic . Would you recommend doing this USC 3+3 program, or hold a high GPA and take the LSAT and apply to more law schools? However, Im not sure that I would be happy living in Urbana-Champaign for three years, and I worry that UIUC has a very narrow alumni network that is limited to the Midwest. Thus, to provide any helpful info, Id need a lot more info form you, and it also may be that we need to wait for more schools to give you firm answers and WL updates. Its also tough on the WL schools because Emory seems to have been struggling a bit recently, yet thats your preferred location, and WashU is the strongest of the three employment-wise, but less of an interest for you location-wise. Reading your comments has been enlightening. Schools are ranked according to their performance across a set of widely accepted indicators of excellence. 69% employment, 24% with clerkship or biglaw. It shows that about 29% of LSU grads end up at firms with 10 or fewer attorneys, so chances are significant that you might end up at a small firm (Tulane is 13.7%). Read more about. Podcast: Meet the 'Trauma Avengers' - UConn Today I would carefully consider those costs and how much youd save, because every dollar you dont save is a dollar of debt you must pay off eventually. That said, $60K more for a school in the T25 vs a school around #75 doesnt sound like the worst deal to me. Its really easy in these conversations to toss number out like $53K or $181K and have them not feel real. Im at a bit of a disadvantage here since I dont specialize in health care related programs, so please take the below with that in mind . Biglaw sounds awful, but I am worried this opinion may change once I enter law school. Ohio State also offers a summer program in DC which she will look into. Im wondering if it is wise to take my free education at Northeastern and run with it, or listen to friends in law school telling me I should try for T-20 if I want to get a job at the orgs im interested in. If you went to Berkeley and received better grades and made law review, and only did middling at Chicago, then Berkeley would likely turn out better for you. WASH U (#17) Waitlisted, (presumably) no scholarship COA @ $63,000 a year National school with great employment outcomes and median salary Not interested in practicing in St. Louis Im undecided in the type of law I want to practice, so there is a fear in not being able to pay back the debt if I dont go biglaw GW (#22) Waitlisted, no scholarship COA @ $63,000 a year National school with the same perks of employment and salary DC is my second choice city to practice in (next to Atlanta) Debt EMORY (#24) Waitlisted, no scholarship COA @ $62,000 a year National school with the same perks I was an undergraduate student at Emory and loved my time at Emory and in Atlanta- It feels like home to me I hope to practice in Atlanta long term Debt VILLANOVA (#62) Unconditional, $40,000 a year scholarship COA @ $9,000 a year Interested in the possibility of pursuing sports law, which they have one of the best programs for nationally, but not set on it Its not Atlanta, but I wouldnt mind working in Philadelphia or DC Big fish in a small pond argument. But, what you can do to help yourself is talk to Northwestern staff and students about the PI experience therefind out if the environment is right for you and whether this is a legit concern or something thats not an issue. A few thoughts: Im not a big fan of conditional scholarships. I am concerned about debt, as I have 60k from undergrad. Your transcript should show mostly As. How Do You Get Into Villanova Honors Program? and thats the problemwe cant see into the future. It is contingent on maintaining a 2.5 GPA. In a big way. And so it comes down to the classic money vs a higher ranking battle. First, take a full, timed practice LSAT if youve never done so before (or if its been a while, like more than 2-3 months ago). Looking at the numbers, my career aspirations, personal interest, and current climate for new associates, is it wise to take the risk? They will accept the comp but the problem is they will know the costs (schools dont just compare scholarships, they look at your COA too). Start researching now what it would cost to live in Atlanta or Nashville (prepare for all outcomes, not just the most likely ones). Selected Columbia. Over the next year or two a lot can happen, but there are two things to keep an eye on (assuming your GPA makes the minimum: Your LSAT score: not now, but in a year, take a practice LSAT under timed conditions and see how you do. In other words, the lower ranked your starting school is, the higher your grades need to be. I have some savings to cover cost of living (and likely a small chunk of tuition), so I anticipate WashU would leave me with $80K to $100K in debt. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Glad that helped! Everyone wants their deposit RIGHT NOW and Ive already extended the deadline multiple times. I place a premium on choosing a school where you will have success, but if all else is equal, you are throwing away the statistical job advantage enjoyed by WashU here: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/compare/wisconsin/washu. Instead, I drafted an email to BC and am planning on sending it tonight basically stating the above. Any thoughts on my decision welcome. That number is lower than most similarly ranked schools, and is lower than some schools which arent even top 50 (Houston and Miami are two examples). As usual, my disclaimer is that this assumes all else is equal, and that each school is a school you want to attend and would be a good place for you. So, when does it make sense to take the money and run? Thanks again for all of your advice this has been a HUGE help for me! However, given the size of your scholarship at William & Mary, even living at home wont bring GW down to that cost level. Ideally, Id clerk in the Bay Area after graduation then work for a boutique firm. So far, Ive been accepted into Baylor with a 70k scholarship spread over three years, though I got accepted into Texas AM law school with a full ride scholarship. UCLA is No. BC got back to me and said that their initial offer ($26,000 per year) is their best offer. Being from California, I applied to many of our local schools here, and wound up deciding on SCU because of the relatively low debt needed to graduate, and their BigLaw employment numbers were pretty competitive considering the prestigious law schools in the region. Thanks for reaching out! by. Akrons tuition is already very cheap at roughly $24,000 a year, making my total tuition cost for all three years about $30,000. What did AJ Armstrong do? Age and motive explored as Texas man found
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